CSS Gift Grab Edge Case

Jippen — 17/03/2022 I just have an interest in not repeating arguments because you unilaterally decided they didn't happen. IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 and also it was already mentioned that people can accidently get by randomly playing on servers, but right now we were discussing the fact that css fix shouldn't fall under NA-3 and Breed provided certain information that wasn't provided before Deiru — 17/03/2022 so do I Which is why I've explained that this argument is...pointless And that there is a rather easy, democratic way to solve this. .rousa — 17/03/2022 so bros if the path to changing the rules is a merge request, not writing 50000 lines of argument, then why do people not wish to make a merge request. back and forth wont change anyones mind reeeeally so this is all kind of for naught tbh Deiru — 17/03/2022 Something I thought you'd agree with Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 it was a little productive. Mods want to establish in the rules that modifying server code breaks NA-3 next step is MR .rousa — 17/03/2022 kaloo kaly pewP3W | [JK] — 17/03/2022 You could see it under na-7 Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 NA-7 "Do not use “Achievement Unlocker” mods for games." pewP3W | [JK] — 17/03/2022 Yeah it unlocks an achievement for me it’s more that then na-3 If it should fit under a rule Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 that would still only be an invalidation at most though i think pewP3W | [JK] — 17/03/2022 Yeah is TF2 na-7 should fall under the same no? A plug-in or mod Local or server sided should be added something like that Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 I don't think it falls under that because Gift Grab doesn't instantly unlock achievements, you earn progress and still have to meet requirements Jippen — 17/03/2022 Not including multiplayer servers in NA-3 basically means "Do whatever you want in multiplayer games." Which is something that will need to be accounted for in any planned MRs. TF2 achievement servers are generally join/type a command and get all these achievements, which are SAM-like and NA-1 issues. NA-7 is more specific "Do X instead of doing what the achievement says"

Additionally, NA-1, NA-3, and NA-5 are profile bans. NA-7 is game specific. The reason that the CSS mod lands in NA-3 instead of NA-7 is because its not in the steam workshop, its non-cosmetic, and official-mods hasn't gotten to a point where mods from any other source are allowed. Deiru — 17/03/2022 To me, it seems like you finally found your motivation for further discussion in na-3-clarity Jippen — 17/03/2022 TF2 would also be NA-3, IF astats hadn't ruled on it before the writing of the UAHR. As mentioned in the edgecase, and in the discussion for that. Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 any players who ever earned an achievement on a SourceMod server should be profile banned, you know, to be consistent with the rules this one plugin is irrelevant, using SourceMod at all is file editing this opens up a can of worms Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 @jippen Does NA-3 mean that achievement hunters will be profile banned if they play on a modded game server in any game? any server with modified gameplay Mercury — 17/03/2022 i want CSS gift grab fix to be allowed but there is a point to be made about what kinds of plugins are allowable (regardless if they're considered editing game code or not seems besides the point). obviously you can't blanket disallow all server plugins because that's stupid, but also, like with the classic tf2 autopop example, there definitely are some that shouldn't be allowed. There isn't any criteria to determine what makes a given plugin allowed or disallowed and perhaps there ought to be 🤷‍♂️ YouGotHitByGunner — 17/03/2022 'The only rule this plugin potentially breaks is NA-6 (Do not use unofficial mods that alter gameplay)' I don't think it breaks NA-6, because server plugins were not counted / seen as mods last time I was engaged in a discussion about it (just like auto-unlock buttons are not seen the same as console commands that auto-grant achievements). NA-6 shouldn't apply to server plugins. When I asked a few years ago, the response was that we can modify files server-side. There's potentially dozens of games that you can't start a public/private server for, without modifying at least one/several file(s) to get it up and running. So if we're allowed to modify game files server-side, why would plugins be illegal? You're not modifying your game folder, but the server itself, which are two different entities in my opinion.

I am also aware that downloading plugins from third party sources and installing them on a server has been okay for years, seen several boosting sessions using methods like these in various communities. I've personally participated in an event hosted on the 100Pals server a while ago for No More Room in Hell (and I'd like to note that a 100Pals moderator was also present / participated in this event when it happened), many other people participated (and possibly was a very popular method to 100% this game specifically, and for Source Multiplayer games in general), the host downloaded an infinite ammo plugin from a third party source to make the hardest difficulty more bearable, and possibly other plugins, I don't remember if those were then downloaded in the client's folder when you joined the server, but it definitely affected everyone who joined it. This in my opinion is no different in my eyes than the Gift Grab case. Both plugins were from third party sources (not from the Steam Workshop) and both modify values on the server itself. If those are counted as different cases, then I see it as an inconsistency in the rules. This also raises another issue. I don't see any rules for server-side stuff on https://achievementhunting.com/rules. Nothing that says what you can/can't edit server-side, or what kind of plugins you can add on servers.

We at Exophase team agreed not to ban people for CS Source Gift Grab specifically because it doesn't affect the game folder, and last I was in contact with a Mod on MetaGamerScore, they also agreed that they didn't think it was okay to ban for it either. As far as I'm aware, it's only SteamHunters that it's been applying the Gift Grab rule since it was implemented. Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 thanks for the input. I think we can all agree this doesn't break NA-6 https://discord.com/channels/336949528240586753/512893809298767882/954071629821009974 currently there is no distinction in the rules between the Gift Grab plugin and all other plugins, so it currently doesn't break NA-3 either... I don't understand the arguments against it right now either they are all allowed or none with the current ruleset, but this one has been cherrypicked Rantsi[47] — 17/03/2022 Just remove grandfathering of the TF2 and punish it hard as Gift Grab... Think i already threw that opinion once. Ppl are so pent up wanting it because grandfathered rule of TF2 just makes the game invalidated than perm profile ban. Or as sone people been saying. Change the entire profile ban to game inval and from now on do so with all Valve games. IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 this is not about granfathering of TF 2 anymore Rantsi[47] — 17/03/2022 Well as i have been reading this i keep understanding people bring up the TF2 case back again and again for reference/example when people talk about gift grab :/ Might be me just misunderstanding again ofc Hornet — 17/03/2022 I think for something as contested as this, a game invalidation should suffice. A full profile ban seems rather excessive, especially when the method is allowed on other trackers IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 it was before the hash of the files was checked and information about Source dedicated servers was brought up Rantsi[47] — 17/03/2022 Ah. Seems i have not catched up entirely then. Mb Deiru — 17/03/2022 I still think that someone should just write a merge request but thought I'd chime in to say that punishing harder for TF2 is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen now that the change was already published to rules and some people just ate the invalidation on it because of it. like, "hey, we won't ban you for this anymore" 2 months later "nah changed our minds, get fucked" bron99 — 17/03/2022 it is possible to join such a server without knowing, hence why it should be treated in the same way as tf2 imo, which means it should be a game invalidation at most. IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 yes, it was said by number of people before and it was also said to Xeinok in voice chat conversation with multiple people presented there to what he referenced as "You can't go to competition if you use doping". Xeinok — 17/03/2022 There's hundreds of TF2 cheat servers because the game offers in-game rewards for achievements that many casual players also wanted - it's 1000000000x more likely to accidentally join a cheated TF2 server. CSS Gift Grab exploit servers are extremely extremely rare, and it was only created as a loophole by a small group of achievement hunters who are the only people who care about it and the main people pushing it had already cheated that achievement by any means possible. Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 Who cares how common or rare it is? There hasn’t been sufficient reasoning given to explain why this one plugin breaks NA-3 and others don’t. Xeinok — 17/03/2022 It's also SUPER easy to play in cheated Payday 2 lobbies with hackers who can carry you through any DS/OD but it's outrageous to think that it's okay to just allow that. If anything, people who purposefully cheat via "MP loopholes" should basically just be considered as if they did the same cheating themselves. Xeinok — 17/03/2022 Because this plug-in specifically and purposefully affects gameplay/achievement unlock conditions - it's similar to using fully cosmetic mods vs. mods that directly impact gameplay/achievement unlock conditions bron99 — 17/03/2022 it's not ok to allow that, hence why it should be a game invalidation. but full profile ban is excessive, as you can do that unknowingly Xeinok — 17/03/2022 It's altering the game Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 https://discord.com/channels/336949528240586753/512893809298767882/954104380880199730 Why are these allowed? So all modded servers are not allowed? Many many more people should be profile banned then Xeinok — 17/03/2022 There's obviously nuance, saying extremist sentences like that doesn't really help anyone lol Breedofspeed — 17/03/2022 There isn’t much logic coming from that argument then. None of my files were altered. NA-3 has to do with altering game files. Many mods that are allowed alter game files infinitely times more than this server plugin Xeinok — 17/03/2022 Right now it should basically be considered that servers players play on should follow the same rules as players playing solo I'm not sure which server mods you guys are thinking are allowed? There's often server characteristics that can be altered via server console commands, etc. but that's different than loading in a cheat mod or editing the server file code IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 @Xeinok Payday 2 has it's own edge case and it's not being a part of discussion right now, we are talking about css fix and how it doesn't break any of the rules as it was proven above? still you ignore the fact and want to call people "cheaters: because of that, and I also remember how there was a conversation and you agreed not to call people affected by that with the word "cheaters" as you said "they are simply not listed on the leaderboards, not cheaters". Xeinok — 17/03/2022 k AFAK — 17/03/2022 are custom source mod servers a full profile ban too? Irvinou — 17/03/2022 A big difference with the achievements servers from TF2 is that you still need to complete the trigger to the achievement to get it. You're not cheating the action itself but only the fact the event is active or not. I can almost see how someone can argue it's an OK-9 case. Sorry to jump a bit in the conversation, I'm planning to contribute to the "fixing-games" ongoing project but since there's an interesting debate I give my 2 cents. IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 Plugins are not mods as it was mentioned by @YouGotHitByGunner Xeinok — 17/03/2022 I think there's a long-time, like verrrrrryyyyyyy long time history of massive confusion between what's allowed solo vs. on some kind of server. Reminds me of the very old days with like custom maps and altered stuff for Booster Trooper, PVKII, etc. - a lot of inconsistency and plenty of things probably crossed the line to be honest AFAK — 17/03/2022 time to ban half of top 100 Xeinok — 17/03/2022 lol I know you guys are joking mostly but it really doesn't help to do that statement again and again of "lol well i guess we have to ban everyone on steam then" type of stuff AFAK — 17/03/2022 it's too late to outlaw the use of server plugins that such a huge percentage of the community have already used Xeinok — 17/03/2022 maybe, maybe not, I dunno IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 That's not how it works, servers run their own instance separately, servers send signals to the pc users to trigger certain scripts in the files without modifying them, if the game code was modified by the server it would also modify game files, which would be a pretty big issue if they would be modified every time you join server which would lead to Anti-Cheat Systems to not work at all since they would have any files based on which they could verify if the game was modded Game code can not be modified without modifying game files (the hash is basically the 'fingerprint' of the file). Xeinok — 17/03/2022 I'm personally not really worried about this kind of solo vs. server stuff being invalidation vs. ban because people cheat and cheese everything possible every time anyway and it just increases as the years go by ToME is a perfect example, I have no idea why the rules tolerate such extreme Steam Workshop abuse, but that's where we are I suppose I find it more surprising that you guys who put a ton of time/effort into achievement hunting wouldn't want tighter rules around all this stuff actually, since it's kind of like "protecting your value" in a way AFAK — 17/03/2022 all my homies hate people who used hulk in tome IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 it's all because it doesn't give you advantage on leaderboards since anyone who want to do it can do it referencing to ToME here ^ Xeinok — 17/03/2022 yeah but most humans have nearly 0 respect for "Steam achievement hunting" because of SAM and extreme cheese and editing files easily and such I dunno, it's kinda cursed tbh AFAK — 17/03/2022 I think more humans just don't care, rather than know about people cheating Xeinok — 17/03/2022 true, like every single video or post "out in the wild" I see about Steam achievements 100% of the time there will be some comment like "lol cant u just use SAM to get any achievement???" followed by some other comment "lol i hate achievements i just play games for fun, no one tells me what to do for fun!!" lmao MrAwesomeFalcon — 17/03/2022 i just think its kinda funny that the biggest achievement advocate now seems to despise them with all of his being :shrugdrmario: AFAK — 17/03/2022 he got too old for haha dopamine pixel in the corner of the game Xeinok — 17/03/2022 I definitely don't hate achievements and still spend a lot of my personal time going for cheevos I'm just kinda contemplating like what is the point of rules at all It's to make it fair and balanced so that participants and outside people can recognize that it is fair and balanced. But rules are also to bring focus to a "sport" and make it more entertaining and "respected" in certain ways. That's why you can't kick dudes in the balls in baseball for example, lmao, even though it might be an awesome strategy And that's why "just using SAM" is boring af and no one would care about a leaderboard for SAMers Hornet — 17/03/2022 Ok so uh philosophy aside, as the method is currently not allowed, could we steer this into more of a "profile ban vs game invalidation" discussion/vote? Whether it should be completely allowed or not is something that has been going on for a while now, and this would make for a nice compromise in the meanwhile Xeinok — 17/03/2022 But honestly, the way I've played many games and the way "standard achievement hunters" play many games earns us basically 0 respect from other gamers or non-hunters - I hear people talking badly about extreme cheese and exploits and such a lot and it's always tough to explain Hornet — 17/03/2022 Don't see this really going anywhere Xeinok — 17/03/2022 The philosophy part matters because every time every rule change is to allow MORE, it's never a rule change to allow LESS, you know what I mean? AFAK — 17/03/2022 can I make an MR for SAM usage Xeinok — 17/03/2022 What is the goal here, to just allow everything except SAM at the end of the day? Many would argue that we should even allow SAM for certain situations, tbf AFAK — 17/03/2022 yeah when I feel like I have earned an achievement, I should be allowed to SAM it IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 If we gonna tighten rules more and more in an inadequate way, someone will one day say: "let's ban people for glitches which were disapproved by devs" <- which would lead to banning people who got "infallible" achievement in Fall Guys during frame of its being glitched in custom lobbies, I got this achievement 2-3 days prior to this bug and I was really happy for people who got it via glitch as they wouldn't have to go through the pain I had to go to achieve it. MrAwesomeFalcon — 17/03/2022 if you added new restrictions you couldn't punish people who did it before, that's just fucked. therefore it would be okay for some to have done it and not okay for new people to do it. which is also just fucked IGGYTRIX — 17/03/2022 This ^ I heard @AFAK been getting a lot of achievements in spam games by pressing 1 button <- not allowed anymore :newhammer: AFAK — 17/03/2022 ah shit Kynoshio — Yesterday at 00:56 Can someone tell me is css gift grab legal now? Or the mods are still not sure to allow it? IGGYTRIX — Yesterday at 00:59 it was proved to be legal by recent information, but it is still discussed and not allowed to be used because we need to post a MR to start the vote so the community could decide and if it passes, it will be applied to the rules (probably as an edge case) Kynoshio — Yesterday at 00:59 What even is MR? IGGYTRIX — Yesterday at 00:59 Merge Request all rules are being applied through the bot and publicly so there wouldn't be any hidden changes As soon as MR will be ready (written with the words so all the people could understand it) and pushed to the vote, there should be an announcement about vote happening Kynoshio — Yesterday at 17:24 Also why isn't modding music in PAYDAY 2 allowed, or even custom maps like in CS:S? technically they aren't replacing any maps in contracts section, they have a separate section for them (some maps make achievements for killing easier) IGGYTRIX — Yesterday at 17:47 you can research on that topic, gather information and proofs, provide them here and then propose changes, "technically" is not the proof and the exact reason why CSS gift grab fell under "NA-3" rule 1 year ago because people believed that game files were modified by server. Also there's https://achievementhunting.com/rules#na-6 in the rules. 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